Including Original "Paul H. Letters" Copyright © 1996-2017 Paul V. Heinrich - All rights reserved.

Saturday, 22 December 2007

Coal Methane Contributed Late Permian Extinctions ????

Coal Methane Contributed Late Permian Extinctions ????

Paul bristolia at
Fri Dec 21 16:23:22 EST 2007

Dear friends,

There is an interesting paper about how coal methane
might have contributed to Late Permian extinctions.

It is:

Retallack, G. J., and A. H. Jahren. 2007, Methane Release
from Igneous Intrusion of Coal during Late Permian
Extinction Events. The Journal of Geology. vol. 116, pp. 1–20

In part the abstract read:

“Unusually large and locally variable carbon isotope excursions
coincident with mass extinctions at the end of the Permian
Period (253 Ma) and Guadalupian Epoch (260 Ma) can be
attributed to methane outbursts to the atmosphere. .... On
paleogeographic maps, the most marked carbon isotope
excursions form linear arrays back to plausible methane
sources: end-Permian Siberian Traps and Longwood-Bluff
intrusions of New Zealand and end-Guadalupian Emeishan
Traps of China. Intrusion of coal seams by feeder dikes to
flood basalts could create successive thermogenic methane
outbursts of the observed timing and magnitude, ...
Methane released by fracturing and heating of coal during
intrusion of large igneous provinces may have been a
planetary hazard comparable with bolide impact.”

This paper concluded:

“Addition of the end-Guadalupian case to the better known
end-Permian, end-Triassic, and end-Cretaceous cases
makes coincidence less likely, and copious generation of
methane by intrusion of coals supplies ample killing power.
Like meteorite and comet impacts, thermogenic methane
outbursts may have been significant hazards to life on Earth.”


Paul H.

Friday, 14 December 2007

Meteorite articles in "Comptes Rendus Geosciences"

Meteorite articles in "Comptes Rendus Geosciences"

Paul bristolia at
Thu Dec 13 09:26:18 EST 2007

Volume 339, No. 14-15 (November 2007), issue of Comptes
Rendus Geosciences has a few articles about "Formation
du système solaire : approche cosmochimique dans le c
onteste astrophysique. They include:

1. Short-lived radioactive nuclides in meteorites and early
solar system processes by Marc Chaussidon and Matthieu

2. The insoluble organic matter in carbonaceous chondrites:
Chemical structure, isotopic composition and origin by
Laurent Remusat, François Robert and Sylvie Derenne

and 3. Impacts in the primordial history of terrestrial planets
by Alessandro Morbidelli


Paul H.

Arctic Impact Crater Lake Reveals Interglacial Climate

Arctic Impact Crater Lake Reveals Interglacial Climate

Paul bristolia at
Thu Dec 13 09:21:21 EST 2007

Arctic Impact Crater Lake Reveals Interglacial
Cycles in Sediments Univerity of Arkansas,
December 11, 2007

Pingualuit Crater Lake Project


Paul H.

Thursday, 13 December 2007

Evidence Against Permian-Triassic Asteroid Impact Published

Evidence Against Permian-Triassic Asteroid Impact Published

Paul bristolia at
Wed Dec 12 16:21:26 EST 2007

In “December Media Highlights: Geology and GSA Today” at:, there is:

Xie, S., R. D. Pancost, J. Huang, P. B. Wignall, J.
Yu, X. Tang, L. Chen, X. Huang, and X. Lai, 2007,
Changes in the global carbon cycle occurred as two
episodes during the Permian-Triassic crisis. Vol. 35,
no. 12, pp. 1083-1086.

The press release stated:

“Earth witnessed its most severe mass extinction 250
million years ago. This extinction has been thought
to be abrupt and probably caused by an extraterrestrial
impact. However, Xie et al. present several lines of
geochemical evidence from a South China section (an
optimal section to study the biotic crisis) that
indicates a two-episodic global change in association
with the ecological crisis. The global carbon cycle,
the enhanced terrestrial weathering, the marine
photic zone euxinia, the faunal mass extinction,
and the cyanobacterial expansion all occurred as two
episodes, showing a close coupling among the ocean,
the atmosphere, and the land system at that time. In
particular, Xie et al. found that the first episode
occurred before the presumed bolide impact. The
temporal sequence of these two events suggests that
the biotic crisis was a consequence of prolonged and
episodic changes in the marine and continental
systems, and argues against an extraterrestrial
impact as the main cause.”


Paul H.

Crow Creek Member of Pierre Shale is Impact Tsunami Generated

Crow Creek Member of Pierre Shale is Impact Tsunami Generated

Paul bristolia at
Wed Dec 12 16:19:38 EST 2007

In “December Media Highlights: Geology and GSA Today” at: , there is:

Weber, R. D., and D. K. Watkins, 2007, Evidence from
the Crow Creek Member (Pierre Shale) for an impact-
induced resuspension event in the late Cretaceous
Western Interior Seaway. . Vol. 35, no. 12,
pp. 1119-1122.

The press release stated:

The Crow Creek Member, a unique rock unit in the Upper
Cretaceous Pierre Shale in South Dakota and Nebraska,
has been thought to represent sea-level rise along
the eastern margin of the Western Interior Seaway.
However, Weber et al. show that the presence of impact
ejecta from the Manson Impact Structure, found within
the Member, suggests an impact-induced genesis.
Current investigation of a reworked nannofossil
assemblage occurring within the Crow Creek Member is
consistent with an origin involving gravitational
settling rather than sea-level rise. Additionally,
the reworked assemblage decreases in abundance with
increased distances from the Manson Impact Structure.
These observations support the hypothesis that Manson
Impact may have caused a re-suspension event in the
Western Interior Seaway, resulting in Crow Creek


Paul H.

AGU Paper Claims Meteorites Blasted Mammoths

AGU Paper Claims Meteorites Blasted Mammoths

Paul bristolia at
Wed Dec 12 09:56:40 EST 2007

Great beasts peppered from space
By Jonathan Amos, BBC News

“Startling evidence has been found which shows
mammoth and other great beasts from the last
ice age were blasted with material that came
from space.”


Mammoth tusks show up meteorite shower: Fossils
could provide a new gold mine for micrometeorite
hunters by Rex Dalton, Nature News


Proof great beasts were blasted from space By
Laura Clout, T he Telegraph, Decemebr 12, 2007



Wednesday, 28 November 2007

Meteorite Shale

Meteorite Shale

Paul bristolia at
Wed Nov 28 13:11:20 EST 2007

Ron asked:

>I see some Meteorites for sale, especially the

>Willamette Meteorite, listed as Meteorite Shale.

>What exactly is Meteorite Shale?

It is a term used for a highly weathered (terrestrialized) meteorite.
The use of “shale”, I suspect, came from the tendency of some
highly weathered meteorites, specifically highly oxidized iron
meteorites to develope a layered structure as they weather and
break into subparallel / parallel layers like shale when broken.

The terms “shale balls” and “iron shale” is also used for
some highly weathered meteorites.

When Meteorites Get Old


Paul H.

Wednesday, 21 November 2007

Another Possible crater? - Additional Note

Another Possible crater? - Additional Note

Paul bristolia at
Wed Nov 21 09:12:04 EST 2007

This is an additional note to:

Jerry wrote:

"This is copied from the article that you supplied

"We will defiantly let you know the outcome of the
research," they said.

Seems there's been quite of few of those threats on
the List this year. Maybe things will calm down to
normal next year and folks will get back to just
nicely reporting the facts." "

A detailed geologic map and description of the
geology of the region of the "Bender Crater"
can be found in:

Knechtel, M. M., 1959, Stratigraphy of the Little Rocky
Mountains and encircling foothills, Montana. United
States Geological Survey Bulletin no. 1072-N, pp.

This publication and map can be downloaded from:


Paul H.

Tuesday, 20 November 2007

Another Possible crater?

Another Possible crater?

Paul bristolia at
Tue Nov 20 23:08:04 EST 2007

Jerry wrote:

"This is copied from the article that you supplied

"We will defiantly let you know the outcome of the
research," they said.

Seems there's been quite of few of those threats on
the List this year. Maybe things will calm down to
normal next year and folks will get back to just
nicely reporting the facts.” "

The origin of these features was discussed back in
June. There are some really nice geological maps,
which show this feature to be a domal uplift, which is
only one of a number of laccoliths and other igneous
intrusions. It is just one of several circular features
of igneous origin that occur locally.

Go look at

There I stated:

"Using information given in the article, I used Google
Earth to find the the location of the structure, which
it discusses. The latitude and longitude of this
structure is:

108.6729941879148 W

47.82294379843308 N

It is on the edge of hills known as "The Little Rocky
Mountains". There a number of circular structure
within the region associated with laccolithic intrusions.

There is a discussion of this in "Geology and Physiography
of Fort Belknap" at:

The "Geologic Map of the Zortman 30' x 60' Quadrangle,
Central Montana" can be downloaded from:


Two publications on the geology of the area are:
Knechtel, M.M., 1944, Oil and gas possibilities of the
plains adjacent to the Little Rocky Mountains, Montana:
U.S. Geological Survey, Oil and Gas Investigations
Map OM-4, scale 1:48000.

Knechtel, M.M., 1959, Stratigraphy of the Little Rocky
Mountains and encircling foothills, Montana: U.S.
Geological Survey, Bulletin 1072-N, scale 1:48000.”

Best Regards,


Monday, 12 November 2007

Rosetta gravity assist flyby

Rosetta gravity assist flyby

Paul bristolia at
Mon Nov 12 16:18:54 EST 2007

Sterling K. Webb wrote:

>There's something re-assuring about the notion

>that we could detect a "potential impactor,"

>even if we didn't immediately recognize that

>it's one of ours!

There is a discussion, which expresses similar
thoughts, of Rosetta, AKA "2007 VN84", in:

That's no near-Earth object, it's a spaceship
By Emily Lakdawalla, Nov. 9, 2007,


Paul H.

Friday, 9 November 2007

Post-Cretaceous/Tertiary Impact Ammonites Found in New Jersey

Post-Cretaceous/Tertiary Impact Ammonites Found in New Jersey

Paul bristolia at
Fri Nov 9 08:48:45 EST 2007

Rethinking What Caused the Last Mass Extinction
by John Noble Wilford, November 6, 2007, New
York Times.

“On previous visits, they had found in the Pinna
rock and soil a surprising number of marine fossils,
including small clams, crabs and sea urchins. There
was an abundance of ammonites, considered index
organisms of the uppermost Cretaceous
environment. Somehow, here at least, life appeared
to have not only persisted but also flourished for
tens, perhaps hundreds, of years after the putative
asteroid impact.”


Paul H.

Tuesday, 6 November 2007

Question about Polarizing Microscope Lomo Polam P-211

Question about Polarizing Microscope Lomo Polam P-211

Paul bristolia at
Tue Nov 6 14:31:15 EST 2007

On Novemeber 5, 2007 and in "Question about Polarizing
Microscope Lomo Polam P-211", Pat Brown asked:

“Can any of you help me learn anything more about
this microscope? I contacted the good folks at Lomo
USA and they tell me that this microscope was never
supported in the US market and that they can offer
no help or support. I am appealing to the international
members of this list for any help they might be able
to offer.”

A good place to ask this question is the Yahoo Microscope
Group at:

There are 2300 members in this group, many of whom
are experts at obtaining second- and third-hand manuals
and parts of microscopes. Also, there is a lot expertise
on this list with petrographic / polarizing microscopes.

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Wednesday, 31 October 2007

Sunday, 28 October 2007

Claxton Mailbox and Meteorite

Claxton Mailbox and Meteorite

Paul bristolia at
Sun Oct 28 16:57:21 EDT 2007

1. Mailbox set to fetch price that's sky high |
Hit by meteorite in '84, it could go for $80,000 and

2. The world's most valuable mailbox, By Charles Leroux
Tribune, October 26, 2007,1,4551901.story

3. The Claxton Meteorite and Mailbox

4. Macovich Collection of Meteorites


Paul H.

NPR Segment About Meteorite Auction

NPR Segment About Meteorite Auction

Paul bristolia at
Sun Oct 28 23:41:01 EDT 2007

Chunk of Famed Meteorite Goes to Auction

"Weekend Edition Sunday, October 28, 2007 · At the
Rose Center for Earth and Space in New York City,
the museum's showpiece meteorite is conspicuously
bald on top.

They talk at length about other meteorites and related objects also.


Paul H.

Tuesday, 23 October 2007

Russians Blamed For Peruvian Unrest Over Meteorite

Russians Blamed For Peruvian Unrest Over Meteorite

Paul bristolia at
Tue Oct 23 14:20:51 EDT 2007

Authorities in Puno, Peru to Begin Meteorite Extraction Project
Latest News in Peru, October 19, 2007

"(LIP-ir) -- According to Andina, Peru's government news agency,
Peru's Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute (INGEMMET)
reported today that Russian meteorite traffickers were persuading
authorities and citizens in Puno, Peru to extract the fallen meteorite
for economic gain.

The Regional Geology Director for INGEMMET, Hernando Núñez
del Prado stated, "I've been told that foreigners, with Russian
nationalities, have been manipulating the people, telling them
that if they don't extract the probable fragments that are in the
deep (crater), they will turn to ash and disappear."" of article and extenesive commentary deleted...

More articles at:


Paul H.

Wednesday, 17 October 2007

Article About the Hico (Impact ????) Structure (Texas)

Article About the Hico (Impact ????) Structure (Texas)

Paul bristolia at
Wed Oct 17 14:10:30 EDT 2007

There is a short article about the Hico Structure in
Erath-Hamilton counties Texas, which has been argued
to be an impact structure in the November 2007 issue
of the Houston Gem and Mineral Society’s newsletter,
the Backbender's Gazette.

The Mysterious Hico Structure, Hamilton-Erath
Counties, Texas. BackBender's Gazette. vol. XXXVIII,
no. 11, pp. 11-16 (November 2007)

This issue can be downloaded from either

or .



Tuesday, 16 October 2007

Saturday, 13 October 2007

Own Your Own Meteorite

Own Your Own Meteorite

Paul bristolia at
Sat Oct 13 09:12:06 EDT 2007

Own Your Own Meteorite - Talk of the Nation, October 12, 2007

"Later this month, several small meteorites will be auctioned off
by a major auction house. Purchasing space artifacts has become
big business, says Robert Pearlman, an expert on space-related


Paul H.

Sunday, 7 October 2007

Photoanalysis Software to Apply to Pictures of Peruvian Crater

Photoanalysis Software to Apply to Pictures of Peruvian Crater

Paul bristolia at
Sun Oct 7 23:06:20 EDT 2007

Dear Friends,

It would be fun to collect all of the pictures of the Peruvian
meteorite crater, which have been published and apply the
Photosynth photoanalysis software to them.

More about Photosynth can be found at:

It stated:

"Our software takes a large collection of photos
of a place or
an object, analyzes them for similarities, and then
the photos in a reconstructed three-dimensional space,
showing you how each one relates to the next."

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Thursday, 4 October 2007

Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map Resources

Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map Resources

Paul bristolia at
Thu Oct 4 09:35:31 EDT 2007

Mr EMan wrote:

"Having received some request for more online map
information, here are some tips for locating free on
line maps.(Primarily USA)."

There are some web pages, which provide links for where
free GIS data, including scans of topographic and other
maps, called "DRGs" for various states. They include:

1. "Maps and GIS Resources: United States, by State",
compiled by the University of Oregon Libraries.

2. Libre Map Project - The purpose of the Libre Map
Project is to aggregate and make digital maps and
related GIS data available for Free. The URLs are: and

3. Websites for Digital GIS Data - Stanford University

URLs for International GIS Data:

4. FINDING UNITED STATES DEMs - “Digital Elevation
Models for the United States can be downloaded at
no cost from several locations on the Internet.”

5. Guide to Mostly On-Line and Mostly Free U.S. Geospatial
and Attribute Data - University of Arkansas Compilation.

One way of finding digital map data is to search using your
favorite search engine and a combination of the key words
"GIS", "DRG", and the name of the state, for which a person
is looking for data. Most states now have GIS archives,
which contain DRGs of topographic maps and other digital

In terms of geologic maps, a person can go to the
National Geologic Map Database at:

It contains DRGs and other digital copies of various
geologic maps for parts of the United States.

Digital geologic maps accompany the United States
Geological Survey (USGS) publications, which can be
downloaded free from the USGS Publications Warehouse at;


For example, a geological map of a geologic dome, which
was initially mistaken for an impact crater, can be found in
“The geology and mechanics of formation of the Fort Rock
Dome, Yavapai County, Arizona, Professional Paper
no. 1266, at:


Paul H.

Tuesday, 2 October 2007

More Peru News, Including Locationa and Trajectory of Peru Impact

More Peru News, Including Location and Trajectory of Peru Impact

Paul bristolia at
Tue Oct 2 15:52:24 EDT 2007

Dear friends,

More about the Peru impact, including a figure showing the
location of the impact and presumed trajectory of the meteorite
can be found in:

Mysteries remain over Peru meteorite impact

by Jeff Hecht New Scientist, September 28, 2007

Inferred trajectory and location of impact shown at:

Wild theories about meteorite in Peru discounted
Globe and Mail, Canada Sep 26, 2007

It came from space by Margaret Munro ,
CanWest News
Service, September 27, 2007


Paul H.

Sunday, 23 September 2007

More articles on Peruvian Event and Possible Picture

More articles on Peruvian Event and Possible Picture

Paul bristolia at
Sat Sep 22 10:10:32 EDT 2007

Some recent articles of interest about the Peruvian explosion.

1. Meteorite causes a stir in Peru: The explosion near Carancas
frightened and awed residents and (they say) made them sick. Los
Angeles Times, September 21, 2007,1,5605341.story?coll=la-headlines-world

This article has some detail about local reaction, including
hopes to bring in tourists.

2. In Peru, a Crater and Questions By Mike Nizza and Mike Nizza
New york Times bloggers, who visited the crater, September 20, 2007,

3. Peruvian Meteorite Has Sci Fi Twist By Bill Christensen,, September 19, 2007

4. Space object or meteorite that fell in Peru causes sickness

This has a untitled picture, which may or may not be of whatever
fell in Peru.

5. Meteorite Likely Caused Crater in Peru

Correction: Peru Meteorite Story, Associated Press



Friday, 21 September 2007

Experts Skeptical of Peruvian Meteorite Impact

Experts Skeptical of Peruvian Meteorite Impact

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 20 17:06:51 EDT 2007

Scientists Doubt Meteorite Sickened Peruvians by
By Andrea Thompson,, September 19, 2007

Experts: 'Meteor' Gases Likely Caused by Geyser,
Fox News September 19, 2007,2933,297369,00.html

The only saving grace about this story is the last line, which reads:

"Peruvian geologists are on their way to examine the crater, according to news reports."

Hopefully, this means someone will get down to the bottom of this mess and determine what really happened.

These stories have been followed by:

Peruvian Geophysicist Confirms Claim of Meteorite Crash
By Monte Hayes, Associated Press, September. 19, 2007

It stated:

"Jose Mechare, a scientist with Peru's Geological, Mining and Metallurgical Institute, said a geologist had confirmed that it was a "rocky meteorite,'' based on the fragments analyzed."

The sickness was explained by this line in the article:

"He said fear may have provoked psychosomatic ailments."

They article finally stated:

"She said that after the meteorite struck, small rocks
rained down on the roof of her house for several minutes and she feared the house was going to collapse."

Best Regards,


National Geographic Special (and PNAS paper ??) on Firestone's Ideas

National Geographic Special (and PNAS paper ??) on Firestone's Ideas

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 20 17:14:12 EDT 2007

Dear Friends,
I have been told that there will be a National Geographic Special on the National Geographic Channel about Firestone's Terminal Pleistocene impact and extinction ideas on Sunday, October 7, 2007.

Scant Evidence of "Recent" Water Activity on Mars Found

Scant Evidence of "Recent" Water Activity on Mars Found

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 20 23:19:19 EDT 2007

1. Mars Images Reveal Few Signs of Recent Liquid Water:
New pix throw cold water on reports of recently flowing
streams, Scientific American, September 20, 2007

2. Hope for Water on Mars Dims with Sharp New Images, by Jeanna Bryner, September 20, 2007

3. Insights About Mars Water And Climate From NASA Orbiter
Science Daily, September 20, 2007,

4. Baker, J., 2007, Water, Water, Not Everywhere? Science.

vol. 317. no. 5845, p. 1705


Paul H.

Thursday, 20 September 2007

Downloadable (PDF) World Map of Impact Craters, Volcanoes, and Tectonics

Downloadable (PDF) World Map of Impact Craters, Volcanoes, and Tectonics

Paul bristolia at
Wed Sep 19 08:48:17 EDT 2007

The United States Geological Survey's world map of
volcanoes, earthquakes, impact craters, and plate
tectonics is available online as PDF files. It is:

This Dynamic Planet World Map of Volcanoes, Earthquakes,
Impact Craters, and Plate Tectonics, Third Edition, 2006,
By Tom Simkin, Robert I. Tilling, Peter R. Vogt, Stephen
H. Kirby, Paul Kimberly, and David B. Stewart, United
States Geological Survey Geologic Investigations Map
no. I-2800

"This map shows the Earth's physiographic features, the
current movements of its major tectonic plates, and the
locations of its volcanoes, earthquakes, and impact craters.
Over 1,500 volcanoes active during the past 10,000 years
are plotted on the map in four age categories. The locations
( epicenters) of over 24,000 earthquakes, largely from 1960
through 1990, are plotted in three magnitude categories and
in two depth ranges. This PDF file includes 6 pages of
explanatory and background information, a legend for the
map in landscape mode, schematic cross section, and the
map itself, which is 44 inches wide."

They have both screen and print versions of the PDF files.


Paul H.

Tuesday, 18 September 2007

An explanation for “Meteorite” sickness ??

An explanation for “Meteorite” sickness ??

Paul bristolia at
Tue Sep 18 23:02:32 EDT 2007

I was looking at the picture in the various reports, such as:

1. Peru meteorite strike leaves 200 ill

Looking at the picture, it look like whatever caused the “crater”
landed in one of the intermountain basins, which are occupied
by salt pans associated with the beds of salts lakes. The water-
filled “crater” indicates that the lowest part of the lake bed, where
the water table is close to the surface might have been struck. it is
possible that when the crater” was created that enough hydrogen
sulfide and other gases in the lake deposits were released to either
make some people sick and nauseous. The dust generated from
something sediments full of various evaporite minerals might
have been enough to make people feel not well. Because of the
suddenness and sheer surprise of the event many, many other
people might have became sick out of emotional hysteria and
fearfulness after just a few people actually became physical ill.

Alternatively, people might have become ill simply out of shear
emotional fear and hysteria. if for no other reason, given the nature
of the event.

Just Some Thoughts,


Monday, 17 September 2007

New Online Source of Meteorite Publications

New Online Source of Meteorite Publications

Paul bristolia at
Mon Sep 17 11:59:57 EDT 2007

Dear Friends,

I have stumbled across a new online source of meteorite
publications. It is the "ScientificCommons" at:

A source using "meteorites" yieled 2554 hits.

Each page provides the bibliographic data, an abstract, the
ability to export the citation as either EndNote or Bibtex,
and, if a pdf or other digital version of it is available, a link to
where it can be either downloaded or the location of its

For example, in case of the paper "The SNC meteorites:
basaltic igneous processes on Mars (2006)" by P. H.
Warren and J. C. Bridges, it indicates that a Pdf file of
the article is available from of
The Open University Library's e-prints Archive (United


Paul H.

Sunday, 16 September 2007

Piece of Willamette Meteorite to be Auctioned

Piece of Willamette Meteorite to be Auctioned

Paul bristolia at
Sun Sep 16 08:57:05 EDT 2007

Garrison asked:

“Is there any known evidence that Willamette was known
by/important to Native Americans in the area pre-removal?
Or was this a "hey, this'd bring tourist dollars, let's try
and get it" situation?”

Back in 2000, the Willamette Meteorite was the center of a
significant lawsuit in terms of how the Native American Graves
Repatriation Act of 1990 would be interpreted. Being associated
with archaeologists as an archaeological geologist at that time, I
heard all sorts of commentary about it during various informal
discussions, which I overheard at meetings and work, between the
archaeologists and anthropologist, with whom I worked.

According to my imperfect recollections of these discussions, the
Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde provided, as documented in
their Native American Graves Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) lawsuit, a
well-documented oral history and some written historic records,
which demonstrated that prior to 1855 that the Clackamas Indians,
now part of the modern-day Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde,
definitely regarded the Willamette Meteorite as being quite sacred
and used it regularly as a focus of religious rites. They were forced
to abandoned the ownership of the land, on which it was located and
the meteorite along with the land as a resulted of being forcibly
relocated to new reservations in 1855. Given that it weights 15
tons, it was impossible for them to bring it with them. After that,
their beliefs regarding this meteorite were ignored and dismissed as
“nonsense” from "superstitious Indians” since they had no legal
claim to it and lacked any political power. Later, in order to force
them and many other Indian groups to “assimilate” into American
culture, their legal standing as a recognized tribes were terminated in
1954. It was only in 1983, that the Confederated Tribes of the Grand
Ronde were again legally recognized as even being Native Americans.
Thus, for 29 years, they lacked any sort of legal standing to either
complain about or pursue any claim against anyone in any fashion
and were preoccupied with cultural survival.

It was only with the passage of NAGPRA, which includes sacred
objects and sites in addition to graves, that they had any legal
basis to assert any legal claim or control over the Willamette
Meteorite. After 1990, it took several years of constitutional
challenges and writing of enacting regulations and procedures
before, they and other Native American groups were allowed to
file lawsuits under NAGPRA. Thus, it not until 1999 that they
finally filed a lawsuit under NAGPRA. Unfortunately, the
documentation for all of their claims still lies largely buried
in the legal filings, which were made for their NAGPRA suit.

Some information can be found in:

I. “Meteorite Custody Case” by Diedtra Henderson, Archaeology
Magazine, February 2000, at:

II. “Meteorite Case Update” by Diedtra Henderson,
Archaeology Magazine, May/June 2000, at:

and III. Canku Ota - A Newsletter Celebrating Native America
February 26, 2000 - Issue no. 4, at

My guess would be that the consensus of the archaeologists and
anthropologists, whom I knew, would be that the feelings of a typical
member of the Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde towards
auctioning off this piece of the Willamette Meteorite would be
equivalent what a Roman Catholic would feel if someone had
obtained possession of a large piece of artwork from the Sistine
Chapel and was auctioning it off at either Southby's or Christie's.

An interesting web page is “Willamette Meteorite 2000” at:

Some orther article lengthy articles about the Tribes of the Grand
Ronde and the Willamette Meteorite are:

Indian Group Blasts Meteorite Sale, Washington Post, by Larry
McShane, New York Times, September 14, 2007,

American Indians protest auction of meteorite part Newsday, NY,,0,5129294.story



Thursday, 13 September 2007

Frank Hibben

Frank Hibben

Paul bristolia at
Wed Sep 12 15:24:19 EDT 2007

Grondine wrote:

We've all been treated to Paul's version of Hibben's life. Here's another one:

It scarcely looks like the same man.

First, it is revealing that this obituary is deafening in its
silence about his Sandia Cave and other Paleo-Indian
research. Like many obituaries, it can presents a
sanitized version of a person’s life where unpleasant
controversies are simply ignored as to avoid speaking
unkindly of the deceased.

Finally, if Mr. Grondine reads what other people have
written about Dr. Hibben, he will find that he is quite
wrong about it being my “version” of Dr. Hibben as I
am simplying reporting what other people have
written about him. For example, go see:

1. Preston, Douglas, 1995, The mystery of Sandia
Cave. The New Yorker. vol. 71, pp. 66-72 (June 12, 1995)

2. News: History, Santa Fe / NM, Columns Trail dust,
09/16/2006 - Sandia Cave significance mired in
controversy" at;

Regardless of whether Sandia Cave was a hoax or not,
which is still an open question, it was so badly excavated
and documented that the only people, who regard his work
there and his Sandia Culture as having any validity are
fringe archaeologists such the Hindu creationist, Dr.
Micheal Cremo.

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Piece of Willamette Meteorite to be Auctioned

Piece of Willamette Meteorite to be Auctioned

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 13 09:26:35 EDT 2007

Hot Rock Goes on the Block By Kate Taylor
September 13, 2007, The New York Sun

In part, the article stated:

“The rock, a 28-pound section of the Willamette Meteorite
— the largest meteorite every discovered in America —
will be offered at Bonhams on October 28, in what is
being billed as the first-ever auction exclusively of


Paul H.

Friday, 7 September 2007

Saskatchewan Doorstop Turns Out to Be Meteorite

Saskatchewan Doorstop Turns Out to Be Meteorite

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 6 21:49:39 EDT 2007

Meteorite doorstop excites Western Canadian scientists
August 31, 2007, CBC News

This article started:

"It came from the far reaches of the solar system,
but until recently it was a doorstop. It's a meteorite,
only the 15th to be found in Saskatchewan, and it's
now the subject of intense interest at the University
of Regina.

The rock from space was discovered in 1999 in a field
west of Davidson.”

New KT asteroid injection theory PART TWO

New KT asteroid injection theory PART TWO

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 6 21:38:41 EDT 2007

Mrs. Webb wrote:

"Hi, Paul, EP, List,"

Why are you addressing me? I don't have dog in this hunt. :-) :-)

Just because I post URLs to some articles means nothing about
whether I agree or disagree with them. In this case, they happened
to be something about meteorites, which I correctly guessed would
be of interest to people. I do not know enough to have an informed
opinion about is stated in them.

Maybe I should start adding a disclaimer to such postings that the
content of the articles, to which I post URLs do not necessarily
represent the opinion of the person posting them. :-) :-)

Best Regards,


Impact Chevrons ??? was More holocene start impact memories - perhaps

Impact Cheverons ??? was More holocene start impact memories - perhaps

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 6 13:31:57 EDT 2007

Mr. Grodine wrote:

“There are other (possible) Native American
memories of the ice age impacts which I
was not familiar with. The following comes
from Adrienne Mayor:”

Oral tradition is certainly a source of information about possible
prehistoric catastrophes as discussed in numerous publications.
However, the lack of specific chronological information and the
utter vagueness of them makes it possible to use any of them
to support the catastrophe of choice for almost any point in time
within the Late Pleistocene, Early Holocene, Middle Holocene,
and Late Holocene. For example, Dr. Masse is using many of
the same oral traditions and folklore that Mr. Grodine uses, as
evidence of an 6807 BP impact in the Indian Ocean. For
example go see Ancient Crash, Epic Wave, by Sandra
Blakeseed in the November 14, 2006, New York Times at:

This article stated:

“Dr. Masse analyzed 175 flood myths from around
the world, and tried to relate them to known and
accurately dated natural events like solar eclipses
and volcanic eruptions. Among other evidence,
he said, 14 flood myths specifically mention a
full solar eclipse, which could have been the one
that occurred in May 2807 B.C.”

At least they have testable and credible physical evidence, i.e.
the Fenambosy chevron in Madagascar, that something really
nasty might have happened as noted in “WAPMERR funded
International Tsunami Expedition to Southern Madagascar -
August 29 – September 13, 2006” at; . Also, there are

They also back up their interpretations with what they theorize
to be an actual crater, as detailed in May 7th, 2005--New
Revelations about Impact Crater at:

The web page stated:

“This year, she will describe work she and
colleagues have done in the central Indian
Ocean. Below is an abstract about this
research from a recent scientific conference.
Burckle Abyssal Impact Crater: Did this
Impact Produce a Global Deluge?
Dallas H.
Abbott1, W. Bruce Masse3, Dee Breger2,
and Lloyd Burckle1
1 Lamont Doherty Earth
Observatory of Columbia University, Palisades,
NY 10964
2 Los Alamos National Laboratory,
Los Alamos, NM 87545n
3 Drexel University,
Philadelphia, PA”

They are claiming that their crater is the “Deluge Crater”. The
claims to have found either the “Deluge impact” or the source of
Deluge stories are just as numerous as the number of claims of
people having found Atlantis. :-) :-) Evidence of infinitely
malleable nature of oral traditions and how they can be selectively
interpreted to “fit” theory of choice being advocated is seen in
how various oral traditions are argued to be iron-clad proof of
mutually exclusive events, including anything from the
catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea to a “Deluge” caused by
either supernatural forces or divine intervention.

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Armageddon Games at NASA

Armageddon Games at NASA

Paul bristolia at
Thu Sep 6 13:21:21 EDT 2007

Armageddon games, Feedback, Sept. 1, 2007 New Scientist at

Also, read "Uncomfortable translation" which can be found at
the bottom of the same page.


Paul H.

Thursday, 6 September 2007

Asteroid Collision Doomed Dinosaurs

Asteroid Collision Doomed Dinosaurs

Paul bristolia at
Wed Sep 5 20:08:49 EDT 2007

Scientists implicate huge asteroid collision in death of
dinosaurs, San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 5, 2007

Far-Flung Crash May Have Created Dino-Killer Asteroid
National Geographic, DC, Sept. 5, 2007

Space pile-up 'condemned dinos' BBC News, UK

Scientists find the dinosaur-killer, Globe and Mail


Paul H.

Sunday, 2 September 2007

Possible pre-late Pleistocene Asteroid Impact in Arctic Ocean ??

Possible pre-late Pleistocene Asteroid Impact in Arctic Ocean ??

Paul bristolia at
Sat Sep 1 13:20:54 EDT 2007

An abstract of a poster presented in the 2006,
American Geophysical Union Fall Meeting in San
Francisco presented evidence of a possible asteroid
impact in the central Arctic Ocean on Alpha Ridge.

This abstract is;

Hall, J.K., a, Y., Hunkins, K., Ardai, J., Coakley, B.,
Hopper, J., the Healy 2005 seismic team, 2006. Evidence
for an asteroid impact in the central Arctic Ocean.
Poster OS53B-1114, American Geophysical Union Fall
Meeting, San Francisco, Dec. 11–15.

It can be found at:

This possible impact is mentioned in:

Kristoffersen, Y., B. J. Coakley, J. K. Hall and M.
Edwards, 2006, Mass wasting on the submarine Lomonosov
Ridge, central Arctic Ocean. Marine Geology. vol. 243,
no. 1-4, pp. 1-246. (September 2007)

If the proposed impact is related to the mass-wasting
on the submarine Lomonosov Ridge, then it would be
over 600,000 years old and pre-late Pleistocene in age.


Paul H.

Thursday, 30 August 2007

New Analysis Of Odessa Crater Impact Published

New Analysis Of Odessa Crater Impact Published

Paul bristolia at
Thu Aug 30 12:48:22 EDT 2007

Dear Friends,

A paper, which present a detailed analysis of the Odessa crater, Texas
has been published in the journal of “International Journal of Impact
Engineering”. The paper is:

Littlefield, D. L., P. T. Bauman, and A. Molineuxc, 2007, Analysis
of formation of the Odessa crater. International Journal of Impact
Engineering. vol. 34, no. 12, pp. 1953–1961.

In an hydrodynamics codes analysis, which integrated the geotechnical
(mechanical) properties of the target material along with details of the
topology of the crater, this study concluded:

1. The crater resulted from a near-grazing impact at very high obliquity,
likely greater than 60 degrees;

2. The depth-to-diameter ratio of the Odessa crater “is in a range
that can be reproduced only with a high-obliquity impact";

3. The meteorite likely came from either the southwest or northeast;

4. meteorite impact energy was more than 50 times larger than
originally estimated.

and 5. the meteor diameter was much larger than 2 meters.


Paul H.

New Atacama Desert Meteorite Stewnfields Paper Published

New Atacama Desert Meteorite Stewnfields Paper Published

Paul bristolia at
Thu Aug 30 09:10:41 EDT 2007

Dear Friends,

There is an interesting peer-reviewed paper in the October issue
of the "Journal of Arid Environments", which provides a detailed
analysis of 62 non-paired meteorites found in the Atacama Desert
of Chile. The paper is:

Munoza, C., N. Guerraa, J. Martinez-Friasb, Author, R. Lunarc
and J. Cerdaa, 2007, The Atacama Desert: A preferential arid region
for the recovery of meteorites—Find location features and strewnfield
distribution patterns. Journal of Arid Environments. vol. 71, no. 2,
pp. 188-200.

Among other analyses, they mapped the principle strewnfield
distribution patterns and summarized the general nature of their
character. They found that these finds typically:

(1) showed more than a quarter of their body exposed;

(2) underwent some sign of terrestrial weathering;

(3) stone meteorites have a brownish desert-varnish on hand specimen;

(4) are non-oriented pieces;

and (5) are commonly members of a greater mass distributed in a
certain place.

The Atacama Central Depression was where the most meteorites
were found and the distribution of saline deposits influenced the
weathering and preservation of meteorites.

Best Regards,

Paul H.

Monday, 27 August 2007

Russian Language Scale Cubes

Russian Language Scale Cubes

Paul bristolia at
Mon Aug 27 12:40:46 EDT 2007

Has anyone ever produced any foreign language scale cubes?

I am wondering if any scale cubes using Russian characters
have been made?


Paul H.

My Apologies to Dirk was “The so-called "impactite bed"”

My Apologies to Dirk was “The so-called "impactite bed"”

Paul bristolia at
Sun Aug 26 11:52:18 EDT 2007

Dear Dirk and List,

My formal apologies Dirk. It is early in morning and
I totally screwed up getting the quotes correct.

I apologize for associating you with ramblings for which
You have no responsibility.

It is distracting how the list server double spaces the lines
of quoted text indicated by the “<” or “>” symbol. Can
someone stop it from doing this?

Dirk wrote:

"Paul and List,

The black impactite layer is pretty amazing ? I
never expected it to be that dense or clearly
obvious to the naked eye - my guess is that it
extends throughout other sandstone formation in the

My Formal Apologies.

Paul H.

Sunday, 26 August 2007

The so-called "impactite bed"

The so-called "impactite bed"

Paul bristolia at
Sun Aug 26 10:39:13 EDT 2007

Mr. Grondine wrote:

“Yes. Here you go:

error [[[drtanuki wrote: ]]] error
Note: this was not Dirk Ross`s quote; quote by E.P. Grondine-- later corrected in later post by Paul H.

The black impactite layer is pretty amazing – I

never expected it to be that dense or clearly

obvious to the naked eye - my guess is that it

extends throughout other sandstone formations

in the region –“

What is seen there is ***not*** a layer of impactite. The “black
mat,” as archaeologist call this layer, is organic-rich sediment,
which was deposited in a low-energy cienega (stream or creek
bog) environment. "Black mats" have been known to archaeologists
for decades. What these black mats represent, along with wet-
meadow soils and pond deposits that include diatomite and marls,
are periods of higher water tables and increased ground water
discharge. They are not all of the same age.

Haynes (2003) stated:

"Younger Dryas (YD) age "black mats" (YDBM),

while variable, represent moister conditions

than before or after deposition.

Higher water tables, some perched, are indicated by

Wet meadow soils, algal mats, and pond sediments

Including marls and diatomites, some of which are

white. Geochronological study of over 50 localities

from Arizona to Canada reveal that YDBMs contain

the earliest post-Clovis archaeological evidence and

overlie the last Rancholabrean faunas.

Upland or lowland YDBMs occur sometimes as facies

Or catenas. Regional YD paleosols include the Brady

Of Nebraska and the Leonard of the Dakotas. On

uplands these are darker and thicker in swales and

may reflect perched groundwater or poor drainage.

In lowlands they occur deeply buried beneath

floodplains; in some colluvial settings multiple black

bands are separated by lighter colored slope wash.

Some YDBMs are related to springfed meadows and

ponds formed during increased-discharge periods."

and Huckleberry et al. (2004) stated:

"After ca. 11,000 14C yr B.P., sandy and finer

alluvial muds commonly contain a dark organic

zone or "black mat." These black mats are related

to elevated water tables and increased spring

activity and cluster in age at 9,500 to 10,500

14C yr B.P. (Quade et al., 1998). Quade et al.

(1998) suggest these black mats and associated

spring-fed channels formed in response to

moister conditions during the Younger Dryas

and preserve the last episode of increased spring

discharge before substantial drying occurred in

the early Holocene."

Also, other "black mats" can be found in sediments both post-

dating and predating the Clovis Culture all over the United States.

For example, in the Lake King basin in Trans-Pecos Texas, black

mats have been dated at 17,200, 19,000, 22,600, and 24,700

radiocarbon years BP. Quade et al. (1998) decribes several "black

mats", which have been dated as being much younger than Clovis,

i.e. 1450 , 2320, 6670, 7920, and 7230 BP. In Figure 11, they show

a picture of a "modern black mat marginal to a small spring-fed

channel below Indian Springs Ranch in Steptoe Valley, northeast

Nevada". Black mats are unique neither to Clovis Sites nor times.

All the black mats indicates is that they occupying locations

adjacent to spring-fed wet meadows and channels during periods

of high ground water table and discharge. All they do is indicate

that dramatic climate change occurred during the Younger Dryas.

Of course, that is well known and the significant question is what

caused it.

The black layers, which are seen in photographs are **not**

composed of impactite. These black mats, which occur at some
Paleo-Indian sites are only hypothesized to contain microscopic

impactites. It is quite impossible to see such impactites in any

photographs. the see the alleged impactites, a person has to
conduct a detailed microscopic analysis of the material.

When I worked at the Lubbock Lake Site in Lubbock Texas,

I actually excavated bison bones and artifacts from the “black
mats”, which occur at that site. If only I had known the
controversy, which they would cause, I would have copies of
the slide, which I took before giving them to the Lubbock Lake
Site Museum.

Given all of the fuss about these black mats, I should contact my
archaeologists friends to get some samples to look at for myself.

References Cited

Haynes, C. V. Jr, 2003, Younger Dryas "Black Mats"

and other stratigraphic manifestations of climate change in

North America. XVI INQUA congress; Shaping the Earth; a

Quaternary perspective. Congress of the International Union

for Quaternary Research, 2003, vol. 16, pp. 191. []

Huckleberry, G., C. Beck, G. T. Jones, A. Holmes, M. Cannon

S. Livingston, and J. M. Broughton, 2001, Terminal Pleistocene/

Early Holocene Environmental Change at the Sunshine Locality,

North-Central Nevada, U.S.A. Quaternary Research. vol. 55,

no. 3, pp. 303-312.

Quade, J., R. M. Forester, W. L. Pratt, and C. Carter, 1998, Black

mats, spring-fed streams, and lateglacial-age recharge in the southern

Great Basin. Quaternary Research. vol. 49, pp. 129-148.

Other discussion of paleoenvironmental significance of

“Black Mats” can be found in:

Mehringer, P. J., Jr., and C. V. Haynes, Jr., 1965, The Pollen

Evidence for the Environment of Early Man and Extinct

Mammals at the Lehner Mammoth Site, Southeastern Arizona

American Antiquity. vol. 31, no. 1, pp. 17-23.

Waters, M. R., 1991, The Geoarchaeology of Gullies and Arroyos

in Southern Arizona. Journal of Field Archaeology. vol. 18, no. 2,

pp. 141-159.

Waters, M. R., 2000, Alluvial stratigraphy and geoarchaeology

in the American Southwest. Geoarchaeology. Vol. 15, no. 6,

pp 537-577.

Waters, M. R., and D. D. Kuehn, 1996, The Geoarchaeology of

Place: The Effect of Geological Processes on the Preservation

and Interpretation of the Archaeological Record American

Antiquity. vol. 61, no. 3, pp. 483-497.



Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 4 (Long)

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 4 (Long)

Paul bristolia at
Sun Aug 26 12:01:45 EDT 2007

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 4 (Long)

Note: my previous post in this series can be found at: , , ,

In the post, “More Muck from Paul” Mr. Grondine stated:

“Sorry for the diversion from meteorites to impacts.

What you're being treated to here is the heated
repetition by Paul of the arguments against man
having arrived in the Americas before Clovis as
well as those arguments against a catastrophe.

Here Mr. Grondine shows himself to be hopelessly confused and
ignorant of what I have written as I have never made any arguments
“against man having arrived in the Americas before Clovis”. Nowhere,
as falsely claimed above by Mr. Grondine, in my previous post, do I
argue against that early man arrived in North before Clovis. If he
would bother to closely read what I wrote, he would find, I just stated
that there are no Paleo-Indian points older than Clovis. The fact of
the matter is that contrary to the above assertions to the contrary, I
have no disagreement with people, who argue for the presence of
Pre-Clovis human occupation of North America.

In my last post, I clearly stated:

“Although (sic) there artifacts older than 13,000
BP have been found in the New World, none of
them are the type of Pale(o)-Indian artifacts,
which Hibben (1943) discussed having found
in Alaska.”

The above statement plainly shows that I acknowledge the existence
of artifacts older than Clovis, which by mine and anyone’s definition
would be regarded as being “Pre-Clovis”.

Mr. Grondine continued:

“We've already been through the use of Hibbens
data by other catastrophists who had imaginary
catastrophic physical processes, and the reaction
by the scientific community.
We now move on to the field of anthropology.
Hibbens was the first to discover pre-Clovis
points (at Sandia), and thus was particularly
attacked by those who posited no earlier
peoples than those who produced the Clovis

It is true that there existed a very heated controversy over the
presence of early man in North America before Clovis at the
time that Hibben excavated Sandia Cave. The ultimate problem with
his research, was that Hibben’s excavations at Sandia Cave were so
poorly organized and badly documented and his reports on Sandia
Cave are so full of contradictions and inconsistencies that he simply
failed to make a convincing case for the antiquity of his Sandia
Culture. The fact that his colleagues caught him sending bone
samples, from a paleontological site many miles away from Sandia
Cave, for radiocarbon dating as if they came from Sandia Cave, as
discussed by Preston (1995), certainly raised questions about, at the
best, inexcusable sloppiness of organization on his part, which
allowed him to mix samples from very different sites in his analyses
to, at the worst questions about his honesty. This and many other
contradictions by Dr. Hibben in his publications and statements
discredited himself, not only among the proponents of “Clovis First”
of which I am not one, but also among the archaeologists, who are
proponents of a Pre-Clovis occupation of North America, with
which I greatly sympathize. The question is not whether there are
Pre-Clovis Sites, but how much older than Clovis sites they are.

Reference Cited:

Preston, Douglas, 1995, The mystery of Sandia Cave. The New
Yorker. vol. 71, pp. 66-72 (June 12, 1995)

Douglas Preston is a journalist, who lacks either any personal
opinion, grant money, tenure or professional stake, which would
bias his opinion in the Pre-Clovis controversy.

“Unfortunately for the Clovis First argument,
there are sites with hard dates showing pre-
Clovis (Meadowcroft and Bluefish Cave sites
for the Iroquoian peoples; and Pedra Furada
for the Savannah River peoples). But these
artifacts and radio-carbon dates are not the
deciding point: the undeniable and hard
mitochondrial DNA evidence in the remaining
peoples must be the result of several crossings
at times well before Clovis.”

If Mr. Grondine would take the time and trouble to read my last
post, he would find that I clearly wrote “Although there (are)
artifacts older than 13,000 BP have been found in the New World
...” Thus, Mr. Grondine is again falsely accusing me being a
Clovis-First supporter, which I am certainly not. In addition,
whether or not Clovis was the first to enter North America is
a completely irrelevant Red Herring in this discussion as to
whether the Alaskan “Muck” was created by an extraterrestrial

Mr. Grondine wrote:

“Back now to the Fairbank muck deposit: I

Clearly, the deposits which Hibbens observed
at Fairbanks came from the sudden ice melt
following this impact event:”

This is not the impact generated mega-tsunami, which here-to fore
you have been arguing happened and which is what I thought the
discussion was all about. I find it revealing that once your tsunami
hypothesis for the origin of specific beds described by Hibben
(1943) has been demolished, you invents a new and contradictory
explanation. If this is what Mr. Grondine is proposing, then it is
dishonest for Mr. Grondine to claim that Hibben (1943) supports his
point of view as Hibben (1943) clearly stated:

““The deposits known as muck may be definitely
described, in the opinion of the writer, as loess
material. All characteristics seem to indicate a
wind-borne origin from comparatively local
sources, as the material resembles local bedrock.
The outwash plains of the local glaciations are
likely points of origin for this material.”

Hibben (1943) clearly states above that he interprets the bulk of
the Alaskan “muck” being likely composed of wind-blown silt.
It is just specific layers, which Hibben (1943) described as being
containing the jumbled remains of plants and animals that he
argued as being the result of a catastrophe.

Even your new hypothesis cannot explain the physical characteristics
of the Alaskan “muck”. Cataclysmic floods of any type simply do not
deposit thick sequences of silty sediments. In fact, they erode
them as can be seen in the Channeled Scabland of the Columbia Basin
where loess and any other loose surficial material has been stripped
down to bedrock, which has been deeply eroded itself (Baker and
Nummedal 1978). The texture, the composition, the sedimentary
structures, layering and stratigraphy of the Alaskan “muck” deposits
show none of the characteristics that a cataclysmic flood would have
produced had it occurred. For example, as summarized in Baker and
Nummedal (1978) and seen in innumerable images of Mars,
cataclysmic floods of the type envisioned by Mr. Grondine, produce
very distinct landforms. These landforms include streamline islands;
giant ripples composed of sand and gravel and up to 15-meter (50-
foot high) gravel bars containing cobble- and even boulder-size
clasts; and other features, i.e. Baker and Nummedal (1978), Carling
(1996), and numerous other studies of the Missoula and Altai floods
and jokulhlaups. Such landforms are nowhere to be found in the
Fairbanks, Alaska region. In addition, as demonstrated by innumerable
sedimentologic studies, cataclysmic floods do not deposit just silty
sediments. They transport and deposit very coarse grained sediments,
which in the Fairbanks area would contain abundant cobble and
boulder-size clasts, much like the deposits of the catastrophic
Missoula and Altai Mountain floods.

Finally, as discussed before, the complete absence of event beds in
paleoenvironmental Alaskan records, as summarized in Ager et al.
(1985) and Barnosky et al. (1987), recovered from cores taken from
bogs and lakes from all over Alaska also refute this new hypothesis.

Some interesting pictures of the landforms and deposits of
cataclysmic flooding can be seen in “EPIC - Geologic Features
Collection: Missoula Floods Set I” at;

Some of the more interesting are these pictures are those of giant
ripples, which can be seen at the bottom of this web page.

For more information and pictures a person can look at “The
Missoula Flood” at:

Descriptions and pictures of the deposits and landforms, which
a catastrophic flood creates can found in “Altai Flood” at:

References Cited:

Ager, T. A., and L. B. Brubaker, 1985, Quaternary palynology and
vegetational history of Alaska. Pp. 353-384 in V. M. Bryant, Jr.
and R. G. Holloway, eds. Pollen records of late Quaternary North
American sediments. American Association of Stratigraphic
Palynologists Foundation, Dallas, Texas.

Baker, V. R., and D. Nummedal, 1978, eds. The Channeled Scabland.
NASA, Washington, D.C., 186 pp.

Barnosky, C. W., P. M. Anderson, and P. J. Bartlein, 1987, The
northwestern U.S. during deglaciation; Vegetational history and
paleoclimatic implications. pp. 289-321 in W. F. Ruddiman and
H. E. Wright, Jr., eds. North America and adjacent oceans during
the last deglaciation, Geology of North America, vol. K-3,
Geological Society of America, Boulder, Colorado.

Carling, P. A., 1996, A preliminary palaeohydraulic model applied
To late Quaternary gravel dunes: Altai Mountains, Siberia. in pp.
165-179, J. Branson, A. G. Brown, and K. J. Gregory, eds. Global
Continental Changes: the Context of Palaeohydrology, Geological
Society Special Publication no. 115, Geological Society of London.
More references to other Alaskan paleonevironmnetal records can be
found at: and

Mr. Grondine noted:”

You have not presented a single shred of hard evidence that
there exists any relationship between the impact event described
in this video and the origin of the so-called Alaskan “muck”.

“But with this muck now accounted for, I am left
trying to locate recovered physical evidence of the
impact mega-tsunami which the Lenape described.
(The following account has been adapted to modern
usage from the one preserved in the Walum Olum,
the ancient history of the Lenape people.):”

...oral histories and their interpretations omitted...

Oral histories can provide very useful insight into possible
catastrophes, which have happened in the past. However, they
typically lack the specific information, i.e. precise calendar or
radiocarbon dates, magnitude, duration, and so forth, about an event
needed to prove what they are related to a specific event of any type.
As a result, any piece of oral tradition can often be interpreted and
argued to be proof of almost whatever event a person wants to
interpret it to be. Also, Mr. Grondine and other catastrophists take
a completely materialistic worldview in interpreting oral traditions
that ignores the purpose of oral traditions in teaching religious and
spiritual, not objective historical, truths.

Mr. Grondine wrote

“Let's look at Hibbens description of (sic) Chitna Bay:

"On one particular rainy, dark afternoon, we
were assisting one of the paleontologists in
excavating the remains of an Alaskan lion-a
great, striped beast with long fangs, slightly
reminiscent of a Bengal tiger. He looked like
a nasty customer in death, even though he
was represented only by scattered bones in
the black muck. As we sought for the lower
jaw of the lion in a newly revealed surface
of muck, we found our evidence of man-a
flint point still frozen solid in the muck bank.”

Mr. Grondine is completely confused and absolutely wrong about the
specific location, at which Dr. Hibben is talking about in the above
quote and where he found his “Alaskan lion”. If he would go to
page 97 of Hibben (1946) or page 122 of Hibben (1960), he will
find that in either edition, Dr. Hibben stated his “Alaskan lion” was
found in a gold mine near Fairbanks, Alaska. On page 121, Hibben
(1961) indicates that this gold mine was located “north of Fairbanks
at Rosey Creek”. It is quite clear from Dr. Hibben’s own words that
Mr. Grondine is wrong about Dr. Hibben’s “Alaskan lion” being found
at Chinitna Bay, which lies about 390-400 miles southwest of
Fairbanks, Alaska.

Mr. Grondine quoted

"Its position was about NINETY FEET BELOW THE
ORIGINAL SURFACE. We photographed it in place,
then removed it from the frozen ground, eagerly held it
up, and turned it over for inspection. We washed the
clinging muck from it in the muddy water beneath our
feet. It was of pink stone, finely chipped and gracefully
shaped, and undoubtedly made by the hand of man."

Neither Hibben (1946) nor Hibben (1961) make any references to
marine deposits either comprising the Alaskan “muck” at Rosey
Creek or overlying where Dr. Hibben found his “Alaskan lion”.

In addition, Mr. Grondine completely ignores the fact that both
the point and “lion” were found in an active Alaskan gold mine. It
is an area where material is being moved about and around by
bulldozers and large, intact blocks of “muck” are slumping and
caving from the sides of the mine excavation as permafrost melts
and “muck” is being removed from the sides of the mine to expose
the gold-bearing gravels, which they cover. Given that this material
often refreezes in the Arctic climate of Alaska, it is impossible to
know whether the projectile point and, even the remains of Hibben’s
“Alaskan lion” without detailed photographs and field notes, which
have been, conveniently for Dr. Hibben’s arguments, have been lost.
Also, within the Alaskan “muck” there exist deep cut and fill
deposits, which can create local deep accumulations of younger
sediments cut deeply into older sediments. As a result, without
addition data, observations that the remains of an “Alaskan lion”
and projectile point were found 90 feet deep is meaningless.

Mr. Grondine concluded

“The problem here is that no large cats were living in
the area either 1575 A.D. or 1650 A.D. So obviously
the spot this team examined could not have been the
location where the remains were recovered.”

Given that Hibben’s “Alaskan lion” was found near Fairbanks, Alaska
about 390 to 400 miles northeast of Chinitna Bay, it should be quite
obvious that it is impossible for there to exist any relationship between
the above Chinitna Bay dates and the “Alaskan lion”, mentioned by
Hibben (1946, 1961). Therefore, Mr. Grondine’s conclusion is quite

References Cited:

Hibben, F. C., 1946, Lost Americans, 1st ed. Thomas Y. Crowell
Company. New York, 196 pp.

Hibben, F. C., 1961, Lost Americans, Apollo ed. Thomas Y. Crowell
Company. New York, 200 pp.

Final Note: Radiocarbon Dating - Calendar Years Versus Radiocarbon

In other posts, authors have wisely cautioned about differentiating
between calendar years and radiocarbon years and understanding,
which if these is being used in scientific papers and popular articles.
This can be seen in the following correlations:

10,000 BP radiocarbon is 11,400 BP calendar
11,000 BP radiocarbon is 12,910 BP calendar
12,000 BP radiocarbon is 13,800 BP calendar
13,000 BP radiocarbon is 15,320 BP calendar

More about calibrating radiocarbon dates can be found in:


Radiocarbon Calibration

The CalPal Online Radiocarbon Calibration.

CalPal - Cologne Radiocarbon Calibration & Palaeoclimate
Research Package --


Paul H.

Monday, 20 August 2007

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)

Paul bristolia at
Mon Aug 20 13:03:58 EDT 2007

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)

Note: my previous post in this series can be found at: , ,

In the thread "[meteorite-list] Intro the muck once again",
Mr. Grondine wrote:

"I wrote:

"That point may be placed between say about 45,000
BCE and 8,249 BCE.?"

Paul wrote:

"Contrary to what Mr. Grondine claims above, none of
the projectile points reported by Hibben (1943) has
been dated as being older 11,000 BP."

What I claimed was "between". Last time I checked
11,000 BP came between 45,000 BCE and 8,249 BCE.
But then perhaps its new math, or new archaeology, or
something else. I go with something else."

Again, the fact of the matter is that there is a complete lack of any
evidence for Pale-Indian points older than 11,000 to 13,000 BP,
if you include recent discoveries in Maryland that were announced
after my last post. Although there artifacts older than 13,000 BP
have been found in the New World, none of them are the type of
Pale-Indian artifacts, which Hibben (1943) discussed having found
in Alaska. Thus, your age range from 45,000 BCE and 8,249 BCE
is completely wrong. This is well documented in innumerable papers
and textbooks, which Mr. Grondine either has not bothered to read
or simply ignores because they completely refute his pet theories.
For the details, a person can go look at:

Haynes, C. V., Fluted Projectile Points: Their Age and Dispersion.
Science. vol. 145, no. 3639, pp. 1408-1413.

Holliday, V. T., 2000, The evolution of Paleoindian geochronology
and typology on the Great Plains. Geoarchaeology. vol. 15, no. 3,
pp. 227-290.

Holliday, V. T., C. V. Haynes, J. L. Hofman and D. J. Meltzer,
1994, Geoarchaeology and Geochronology of the Miami (Clovis)
Site, Southern High Plains of Texas. Quaternary Research. vol. 41,
no. 4, pp. 234-244.

Hibben (1943) is:

Hibben, F. C., 1943, Evidences of Early Man in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, no. 3, pp. 254-259.

More recently, Clovis points dating to about 13,000 BP have been
found in Maryland as discussed in "UD grad student's discovery
could help rewrite prehistory, Univ. of Delaware Daily at;

Even these Clovis Points are 35,000 years too young to support
Mr. Grondine's claims of PaleoIndian points being as old as "45,000

Mr. Grondine continued,

"Given this level of discussion, one has to wonder
why I carry on - oh yes, its because there was an
impact that killed large numbers of people, and
that and only that makes it worth the time and

I sorry, but given the completely imaginary nature of your impact
and the fictional nature of the "large numbers of people" killed
by your imaginary impact, you are wasting a large amount of time
and aggravation for nothing. The few geologists, whom have seen
your book consider it a boring piece of fiction, which I call
"geopoetry", much like disaster movies such as "Volcano", "10.5",
"The Core", "Aftershock: Earthquake in New York", and "Crack
in the World".

I am wasting my time and effort on this discussion because, a
considerable number of catastrophists deliberately mislead their
readers by falsely citing and portraying Hibben (1943) as a
reliable and credible source of information about the so-called
Alaskan "muck" deposits. The bankruptcy of these catastrophists
illustrated by the fact they have to completely ignore over 60
years of research by world-class scientists and ignore the complete
lack of expertise by Hibben (1943) and his numerous credibility
problems to argue for there being tsunami deposits of any types in
his so-called Alaskan "mucks". The catastrophists, who accept
Hibben (1943) as an authoritative source and rejecting everything
else written in the 60 year since it was published are practicing
what I call "Cafeteria Catastrophism", in which data, papers,
interpretations, and arguments are accepted and rejected like a
person selects food at a cafeteria based on either how tasteful or
distasteful the food is.

Mr. Grondine continued,

"Now it's all very easy to say some 60 years
later to say that "this was the deposit that
Hibbens saw" or that "this was the place he was",
and then make claims about his work. The specific
deposits which Hibbens examined were destroyed
in the same hydraulic mining operation that
exposed them."

The claim is completely false. Any comparison, as I did in my
previous post of the descriptions given by Hibben (1943) of his
"muck" deposits and the Pliocene, Pleistocene, and Holocene
deposits of show that Hibben's so-called "muck" deposits are
exactly the same deposits, which have been studied by the later
researchers in the past sixty years. Although the specific outcrops
are gone, the same deposits can be seen in newer outcrops and
those described in the papers described at the end of this post.
The people reading this list can judge for themselves by
comparing the descriptions given in any of the papers listed at
the end of this post. In addition, the cataclysmic mega-tsunami
hypothesized by Mr. Grondine would have blanketed thousands of
square miles with a very distinctive sedimentary layers that would
be physically impossible for any mining operations and other
human activities to have completely removed.

This topic was discussed in mind-numbing detail in:

In addition, the imaginary nature of his "muck" deposits. mammoth
bones and archaeological site, which Hibben (1943) reported from
Chinitna Bay is well documented by:

Thorson, R. M., D. C. Plaskett and E. J. Dixon, 1978, Chinitna Bay
cultural resource study-The geology and archeology of the southern
shore of Chinitna Bay, Alaska. University of Alaska Museum,
Fairbanks, Alaska.


Thorson, R. M., D. C. Plaskett and E. J. Dixon, 1980, A reported
early-man site adjacent to southern Alaska's continental shelf:
A geologic solution to an archeologic enigma. Quaternary
Research. vol. 13, no. 2, pp. 259-273.

Mr. Grondine continued,

But what I find hard to accept is why Hibbens
would lie, when those who were there with him
were still alive. And why would he lie about
what he saw?"

If Mr. Grondine would take the time to read through my last post,
he would find that I answered this questions at least twice. First,
having spent all of his time working in the dry, hot climates of the
America Southwest, Dr. Hibben was simply functionally illiterate
in his understanding of cold-climate Arctic periglacial processes
that created his so-called "muck" deposits. As a result, he
completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what he saw.

Second, if Mr. Grondine would read, Preston (1995), he would
find that I am not the person, who is arguing that Hibben lied.
Rather, the allegations of fraud were raised by paleontologists,
geologists, and archaeologists, who directly with worked Hibben.
The numerous irregularities and contradictions in Hibben's
published research, which they interpreted to be evidence of fraud,
from what I can see, could just as easily be explained sloppiness,
poor management, and gross incompetence on Hibben's part. He
can find the answer to his question in Preston (1995).

I pointed out Preston (1995) because, in order to fully evaluate
Hibben (1943), people need to know that he is a very controversial
figure in American archaeology and not as highly regarded by
conventional archaeologists as Mr. Grondine falsely portrays him
to be.

References Cited:

Preston, Douglas, 1995, The mystery of Sandia Cave. The New Yorker.
vol. 71, pp. 66-72 (June 12, 1995)

People can find more detail at:

Mr. Grondine asked:

"Two other points:

1)None of the known major mega-tsunamis caused by
volcanic island landslides seem to have shown up in
any of these studies Paul cites, and"

Because Fairbanks, Alaska lies approximately 350-370 miles from
Beaufort Sea/Arctic Ocean; approximately 390 miles from Norton
Sound; approximately 420 miles from Kotzebue Sound and
approximately 340-360 miles from the Gulf of Alaska. That is too
far inland for the magnitude of mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic
island landslides to have traveled inland. In addition, on three
sides of Fairbanks, Alaska, there are mountain ranges, which
being thousands of feet high, would effectively block the magnitude
of mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic island landslides from reaching
Fairbanks. The mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic island landslides,
as large as they are, simply are too small to flow over mountains,
which are thousands of feet high and travel hundreds of miles
inland. As a result, there is no geologic record of them having
reached Fairbanks.

In sharp contrast, numerous, well-documented examples of multiple
sedimentary layers created by mega-tsunamis / tsunamis, depending
on how a person defines them, have been described in the scientific
literature from sediments of salt marshes, coastal lagoons, and
coastal lakes, which occur along the Pacific coast of North America.
These sedimentary layers, called “event beds”, are excellent
examples of the quite distinctive nature of mega-tsunamis /
tsunamis deposits, which any geologist would be able to readily
recognize in the Fairbanks area had Mr. Grondine's imaginary
mega-tsunamis actually occurred. These studies demonstrate that
the sedimentary layers created by a mega-tsunamis are completely
different in their grain-size, sedimentary structure, bedding,
and other characteristics from the layers within the Alaskan
“muck”, which Hibben (2943) completely misidentified as having been
created by some ancient catastrophe. A "few" of the many scientific
publications, which described the physical character of the event
beds created by mega-tsunamis / tsunamis and found along the Pacific
coast are:

Atwater, B. F., A. R. Nelson, J. J. Clague, G. A. Carver, D. K.
Yamaguchi, P. T. Bobrowski, J. Bourgeois, M. E. Darienzo, W. C.
Grant, E. Hemphill-Haley, H. M. Kelsey, G. C. Jacoby, S. P.
Nishenko, S. P. Palmer, C. D. Peterson, and M. A. Reinhart, 1995,
Summary of coastal geologic evidence for past great earthquakes at
the Cascadia subduction zone. Earthquake Spectra, vol. 11, no. 1,
pp. 1-18.

Bobrowski, P.T. and J. J. Clague, 1995, Tsunami deposits beneath
tidal marshes on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada. in
Tsunami deposits: Geologic warnings of future inundation,
University of Washington, May 22-23, p.12.

Bourgeois, J., and S. Y. Johnson, 2001, Geologic evidence of
earthquakes at the Snohomish delta, Washington, in the past
1200 yr. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 113,
no. 4, pp. 482-494.

Bourgeois, J., T. K. Pinegina V. Ponomareva, and N. Zaretskaia,
2006, Holocene tsunamis in the southwestern Bering Sea, Russian
Far East, and their tectonic implications. Geological Society of
America Bulletin. vol. 118, no. 3, pp. 449-463.

Clague, J. J., P. T. Bobrowski, T. S. and Hamilton,1994, A sand
sheet deposited by tsunami at Port Alberni, British Columbia.
Estuarine, Coastal, and Shelf Science. vol. 38, pp. 413-421.

Clague, J. J., P. T. Bobrowski, and I. Hutchinson, 2000, A review
of Geological records of large tsunamis at Vancouver Island,
British Columbia, and implications for hazard: Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol.19, pp. 849-863.

Clague, J. J., I. Hutchinson, R. W. Mathews, and R. T. Patterson,
1999, Evidence for late Holocene tsunamis at Catala Lake, British
Columbia. Journal of Coastal Research. vol. 15, no. 1, pp.45-60.

Clague, J. J. and P. T. Bobrowski, 1994, Tsunami deposits beneath
tidal marshes on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Geological
Society of America Bulletin. vol. 106, pp.1293-1303.

Clague, J. J. and P. T. Bobrowski, 1994b, Evidence for a large
earthquake and tsunami 100-400 years ago on western Vancouver
Island, British Columbia: Quaternary Research, vol. 41, pp. 176-184.

Kelsey, H. M., R. C. Witter, and M. Polenz, 1993, Cascadia
paleoseismic record derived from late Holocene fluvial and lake
sediments, Sixes River valley, Cape Blanco, south coastal Oregon.
EOS (Transactions, American Geophysical Union) vol. 74, p. 199.

Kelsey, H. M., A. R. Nelson, and E. Hemphill-Haley, 1995,
Properties and depositional characteristics of tsunamis in south
coastal Oregon from a paired coastal-lake and marsh study: in
Tsunami Deposits: Geologic Warnings of Future inundation,
University of Washington.

Kelsey, H. M., R. C. Witter, and E. Hemphill-Haley 2002, Plate-
boundary earthquakes and tsunamis of the past 5500 yr, Sixes
River estuary, southern Oregon. Geological Society of America
Bulletin. vol. 114, no. 3, pp. 298-314.

Kelsey, H. M., A. R. Nelson, E. Hemphill-Haley, E., and R. C.
Witter, 2005, Tsunami history of an Oregon coastal lake reveals a
4600 yr record of great earthquakes on the Cascadia subduction
zone. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 117, no. 7/8,
pp. 1009-1032.

Kuhn, G. G., 2005, Paleoseismic features as indicators of
earthquake hazards in North Coastal, San Diego County,
California, USA. Engineering Geology. vol. 80, pp. 115-150

Lopez, G.I. and P. T. Bobrowski, 2001, A 14,000 year old record
from a coastal freshwater lake: Sedimentological evidence for
tsunamigenic events on the west coast of Vancouver Island, British
Columbia, Canada: Proceedings of the International Tsunami
Symposium 2001, Seattle, Washington, August 7-10, 2001,
pp. 493-502.

Nelson, A. R., A. C. Asquith, and W. C. Grant, 2004, Great
Earthquakes and Tsunamis of the Past 2000 Years at the Salmon
River Estuary, Central Oregon Coast, USA. Bulletin of the
Seismological Society of America. vol. 94, no. 4, pp. 1276-1292.

Ollerhead, J., D. J. Huntley, A. R. Nelson, and H. M. Kelsey, 2001,
Optical dating of tsunami-laid sand from an Oregon coastal lake
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, pp. 1915-1926.

Peters, R., B. Jaffe, G. Gelfenbaum, and C. Peterson, 2003, Cascadia
Tsunami Deposit Database 2003. United States Geological Survey
Open-File Report 03-13.

Peters, R., B. Jaffe, and G. Gelfenbaum, 2007, Distribution and
sedimentary characteristics of tsunami deposits along the Cascadia
margin of western North America. Sedimentary Geology. vol. 200,
pp. 372-386

Peterson, C. S., and D. Qualman, 1999, Establishing long inundation
distances of prehistoric tsunami from siliciclastic and bio-
geochemical tracers in open-coast, beach plain wetlands, central
Cascadia margin, USA: EOS (Transactions, American Geophysical
Union) vol. 80, no. 46. pp. 520-521.

Sherrod, B. L., 2001, Evidence for earthquake-induced subsidence
about 1100 yr ago in coastal marshes of southern Puget Sound,
Washington. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 113,
no. 10, p. 1299-1311.

Williams, H. and I. Hutchinson, 2000, Stratigraphic and microfossil
evidence for late Holocene Tsunamis at Swantown Marsh, Whidbey
Island, Washington. Quaternary Research, vol. 54, pp. 218-227.

Anyone looking at the above publications, would find:

1. mega-tsunamis / tsunamis of any size leave behind deposits that
are quite distinctive and readily recognizable by any educated
geologist. A person does **not** have to be an expert in either
tsunamis or mega-tsunamis to be able to recognize them with the
unaided eye.

2. Conventional geologists have known about the distinctive nature of
mega-tsunamis / tsunamis for the past 10-12 years.

3. If mega-tsunamis / tsunamis deposits exist within the Neogene,
Pleistocene, and Holocene sediments, which Hibben (1943)
collectively calls "muck", they would be readily recognizable and
quite obvious to any conventional geologist.

4. The deposits of mega-tsunamis / tsunamis are completely different
in their physical characteristics from the layers within the Alaskan
“muck, which Hibben (1943) incorrectly interpreted as having been
created by some sort of catastrophic event.

Another problem, which Mr. Grondine completely ignores is that
paleoenvironmental records extending back into the last, Wisconsin,
glacial maximum have been recovered from cores taken from dozens
of lakes and bogs within Alaska. Some of these cores often provide
a detailed record of paleovegetation, paleoenvironment, and
sedimentation in these lakes and bogs over the past 14,000 years.
In none of these cores is there any evidence of either an event bed,
which can interpreted as having been deposited by either a mega-
tsunamis / tsunamis or the cataclysmic environmental damage that
the mega-tsunamis, which Mr. Grondine argues happened, would have

Looking at the data from these studies, I have to call Mr.
Grondine’s mega-tsunamis hypothesis, the “Magic Mega-tsunamis
Theory”. Mr. Grondine’s mega-tsunamis has to be “magical” in manner
in which it is large enough to obliterate entire cultures and
overtop mountains, which are thousands of feet high, yet not leave
behind any event beds, as left behind by much smaller earthquake
generated mega-tsunamis / tsunamis along the Pacific Coast of North
America, in the numerous core, which have been studies for
reconstructing Alaskan paleoenvironment. Mr. Grondine’s mega-
tsunamis also have to be “magical” in the manner in which they
allegedly powerful enough to have obliterated North America
megafauna yet left Alaskan vegetation completely untouched as
demonstrated by the pollen and other data from the same cores. In
case of these cores, absence of evidence for an cataclysmic event
as large as Mr. Grondine’s mega-tsunamis is clear proof of absence.

Some of these paleoenvironmental records are discussed in:

Alfimov, A. V., and D. I. Berman, 2001, Beringian climate during
the Late Pleistocene and Holocene. Quaternary Science Reviews.
vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 127-134.

Ager, T. A., 1975, Late Quaternary environmental history of the
Tanana Valley, Alaska. Institute of Polar Studies Report no. 54.
Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.

Ager, T. A. 1980. A 16,000 year pollen record from St. Michael
Island, Norton Sound, western Alaska. In American Quaternary
Association, Sixth Biennial Meeting, Abstracts and Program,
18-20 August 1980, P3, Institute for Quaternary Studies,
University of Maine, Orono.

Ager, T. A. 1982. Vegetational history of western Alaska during
the Wisconsin glacial interval and the Holocene. Pp. 75-93 in
Hopkins, D. M., J. V. Matthews, Jr., C. E. Schweger, and S. B.
Young, eds., , Paleoecology of Beringia, Academic Press,
New York.

Ager, T. A., and L.B. Brubaker, 1985, Quaternary palynology and
vegetational history of Alaska. Pp. 353-384 in V. M. Bryant, Jr.
and R. G. Holloway, eds. Pollen records of late Quaternary North
American sediments. American Association of Stratigraphic
Palynologists Foundation, Dallas, Texas.

Ager, T. A., 1989, History of late Pleistocene and Holocene
vegetation in the Copper River basin, south-central Alaska. in Pp.
89-92, L. D. Carter, T. D. Hamilton, and J. P. Galloway, eds.,
Late Cenozoic History of the Interior Basins of Alaska and the
Yukon: U.S. Geological Survey Circular no. 1026.

Ager, T. A., 2000. Postglacial vegetation history of the Kachemak
Bay area, Cook Inlet, south-central Alaska. Pp. 147-165, in K.
Kelley, and L. Gough, eds. U.S. Geological Survey Professional
Paper no. 1615.

Ager, T. A., 2003, Late Quaternary vegetation and climate history
of the central Bering land bridge from St. Michael Island, western
Alaska, Quaternary Research. v. 60, no. 1, pp. 19-32.

Anderson, P. M., 1982, Reconstructing the Past: The synthesis
of Archaeological and Palynological data, Northern Alaska and
Northwestern Canada. Unpublished PhD. dissertation, Brown
University, Providence, Rhode Island.

Anderson, P. M., 1985, Late Quaternary vegetational change in
the Kotzebue Sound area, northwestern Alaska. Quaternary Research.
vol. 24, no. 3, pp. 307-321.

Anderson, P. M., 1988, Late quaternary pollen records from the
Kobuk and Noatak river drainages, northwestern Alaska. Quaternary
Research. vol. 29, no. 3, pp. 263-276.

Anderson, P. M., and L. B. Brubaker, 1988, Vegetation history of
northcentral Alaska: A mapped summary of the late-Quaternary pollen
data. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 13, no. 1, pp. 71–92.

Anderson, P. M., and L.B. Brubaker, 1993, Holocene vegetation and
climate histories of Alaska. Pp. 386-400 in H. E. Wright, Jr.,
J. E. Kutzbach, T. Webb, III, W. F. Ruddiman, F. A. Street-Parrott,
and P. J. Bartlein, eds. Global Climates since the Last Glacial
Maximum, Chapter 15. University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis,

Anderson, P. M., and L. B. Brubaker, 1994, Vegetation history of
northcentral Alaska: a mapped summary of late Quaternary pollen
data. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 13, no. 1, pp. 71-92.

Anderson, P. M., P. J. Bartlein and L. B. Brubaker, 1994, Late
Quaternary History of Tundra Vegetation in Northwestern Alaska
Quaternary Research. vol. 41, no. 3, pp. 306-315.

Anderson, P. M., R. E. Reanier, and L. B. Brubaker, 1990. A
14,000-year pollen record from Sithylemenkat lake, north-central
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 33, no. 3, pp. 400-404.’

Anatoly V. L., P. M. Anderson, W. R. Eisner, L. G. Ravako, D. M.
Hopkins, L. B. Brubaker, P. A. Colinvaux and M, C. Miller, 1993,
Late Quaternary Lacustrine Pollen Records from Southwestern
Beringia. Quaternary Research. vol. 39, no. 3, pp. 314-324.

Axford, Y., and D. S. Kaufman, 2004, Late Glacial and Holocene
Glacier and Vegetation Fluctuations at Little Swift Lake,
Southwestern Alaska, U.S.A. Arctic, Antarctic, vol. 36, no. 2,
pp. 139-146

Bigelow, N. H., and M. E. Edwards. 2001, A 14,000 yr
paleoenvironmental record from Windmill Lake, Central Alaska:
evidence for high-frequency climatic and vegetation fluctuations.
Quaternary Science Reviews 20, no. 1-2, pp. 203-215.

Brubaker, L. B., H. L. Garfinkel, and M. E. Edwards, 1983, A
late-Wisconsin and Holocene vegetation history from the central
Brooks Range: implications for Alaskan paleoecology. Quaternary
Research. vol. 20, no. XX, pp. 194-214.

Brubaker, L. B., P. M. Anderson and F. S. Hu, 2001, Vegetation
ecotone dynamics in Southwest Alaska during the Late Quaternary
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 175-188.

Carlson, L. J., and B. P. Finney, 2004, A 13,000-year history of
vegetation and environmental change at Jan Lake, east-central
Alaska. The Holocene, vol. 14, no. 6, pp. 818-827

Cwynar, L. C., 1982, A Late-Quaternary Vegetation History from
Hanging Lake, Northern Yukon. Ecological Monographs, vol. 52,
no. 1, pp. 1-24.

Edwards, M. E., and Edward D. Barker, 1994, Climate and vegetation
in northeastern Alaska 18,000 yr B.P.-present. Palaeogeography
Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, vol. 109, no. 2-4, pp. 127-135

Hansen, B. C. S. and D. R. Engstrom, 1996, Vegetation History
of Pleasant Island, Southeastern Alaska, since 13,000 yr B.P.
Quaternary Research. vol. 46, no. 2, pp. 161-175.

Heusser, C. J., 1952, Pollen profiles from southeast Alaska.
Ecological Monographs. vol. 22, no. 4, pp. 331-352.

Heusser, C. J., 1955, Pollen profiles from Prince William Sound and
Southeast Kenai Peninsula, Alaska. Ecology 36, no.2, pp. 185-202.

Heusser, C. J., 1983a, Pollen diagrams from the Shumagin islands and
adjacent Alaskan peninsula, southwestern Alaska. Boreas. vol. 12,
pp. 279-295.

Heusser, C. J. 1983b. Vegetational history of the northwestern
United States including Alaska. in pp. 239-258, S. C. Porter, ed.
Late Quaternary. Environments of the United States, vol. 1: The
Late-Pleistocene, University Minnesota Press.

Livingstone, D. A., 1955, Some pollen profiles from arctic Alaska.
Ecology. vol. 36, no. 4, pp. 587-600.

Matthews, J. V., Jr., 1974a, Quaternary environments at Cape Deceit
(Seward Peninsula, Alaska):Evolution of a tundra ecosystem.
Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 85, no. 9, pp.

Matthews, J. V., Jr., 1974b. Wisconsin environment of interior
Alaska: pollen and macrofossil analysis of a 27 meter core from
the Isabella Basin (Fairbanks, Alaska). Canadian Journal of
Earth Sciences. vol. 11, pp. 828-841.

Oswald, L. B., L. B. Brubaker, F.S. Hu, and G.W. Kling, nd, Late
Quaternary Environmental History of the Toolik Lake Area

Pisaric, M. F. J., G. M. MacDonald, A. A. Velichko and L. C.
Cwynar, 2001, The Lateglacial and Postglacial vegetation history of
the northwestern limits of Beringia, based on pollen, stomate and
tree stump evidence. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3,
pp. 235-245.

Shackleton, J., 1982, Environmental histories from Whitefish and
Imuruk lakes, Seward Peninsula, Alaska. Institute of Polar
Studies Report no. 76, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.

The above peer-reviewed, scientific publications are a sample of
an enormous amount of published research, which together completely
refutes and demolishes Mr. Grondine’s mega-tsunamis hypothesis for
the creation of any part of Hibben’s Alaskan “muck”. Other
catastrophists, who use the Alaskan “muck” as evidence of a
terminal Pleistocene mega-tsunamis, fail to mention any of this
literature because they are either utterly ignorant of its
existence or, as a form of what alternative scientists call
“knowledge filtering/ filtration”, simply do not want their
readers to know that there exists an abundant amount of evidence,
which contradicts and, often demolishes, their hypotheses.

Even more such paleoenvironmental records can found at:

Detailed descriptions of the distinctive sedimentary layers, which
an actual mega-tsunamis would have left behind in any lake or bog
deposits can be found in:

Bondevik S, 2003, Storegga tsunami sand in peat below the Tapes
beach ridge at Haroy, western Norway, and its possible relation
to an early Stone Age settlement. Boreas. vol. 32, no. 3,
pp. 476–483.

Bondevik S, J. I. Svendsen, J. and Mangerud J. 1997. Tsunami
sedimentary facies deposited by the Storegga tsunami in shallow
marine basins and coastal lakes, western Norway. Sedimentology.
vol. 44, no. 6, pp. 1115–1131.

Bondevik, S., J. I., Svendsen, G. Johnsen, J. Mangerud, and P. E.
Kaland, 1997, The Storegga tsunami along. the Norwegian coast,
its age and runup. Boreas vol. 26, no. 1, pp. 29-53.

Bondevik S, Mangerud J, Dawson S, Dawson A, Lohne O. 2003. Record
breaking height for 8000-year-old tsunami in the North Atlantic.
Eos. vol. 84, no. 31, pp. 289–291.

Mr. Grondine also asked:

"2) While Paul has commented on the lack of
mega-fauna remains in the new studies, he has
not comment on the what was it, 30 or 90 feet?
of marine sediment overlying that the
spearpoint Hibbens retrieved from that cat's

First, I did not comment on the lack of megafauna in Hibben’s
“muck” as Mr. Grondine falsely claims. According to the "new
studies", some of which are listed at the end of this post, they
clearly mention the presence of abundant megafauna remains within
the Neogene, Quaternary, and Holocene deposits, which Hibben (1943)
collectively refers to as "muck". In the pre-Sangamon, pre-Eva
Forest beds deposits, these remains consist only of bones. The
mummified mammal remains are found only in the “muck” deposits,
which overlie the Eva Forest bed and also locally contain abundant
bones. The Holocene deposits lack any extinct megafauna, although
they contain other fossil bones and the occasional mummified
caribou and scattered mummified squirrels.

Second, it sounds like Mr. Grondine is living in a different planet
then me. :-) :-) I say this because the 30 to 90 feet of marine
sediments, on which he complains about me not commenting, within
the Fairbanks area, exists only within Mr. Grondine's very vivid and
fertile imagination. It is impossible for me to comment on
something, which does not exist in the real world. Hibben (1943) did
not report finding 30 to 90 feet of marine deposits in his so-called
"muck" deposits within the Fairbank, Alaska, area. In fact, he
described the Fairbanks “muck” as consisting predominately of loess
as when Hibben (1943) stated:

““The deposits known as muck may be definitely
described, in the opinion of the writer, as loess
material. All characteristics seem to indicate a
wind-borne origin from comparatively local
sources, as the material resembles local bedrock.
The outwash plains of the local glaciations are
likely points of origin for this material.”

Finally, in case of Chinitna Bay, Hibben (1943) reported finding
only some mammoth bones, which nobody else have been able to find
in that area despite having searched diligently for them. Hibben
(1943) mentions finding neither a "cat's ribcage" nor any artifacts
associated with the mammoth bones that he reported finding at
Chinitna Bay.

In [meteorite-list] holocene start impacts, Mr. Grondine wrote:

"Thanks for the note:

“Now why didn't this layer show up in those alaskan
muck studies which you cited to us?” For that matter,
why didn't the signs of the known landslide and
seismically caused mega-tsunamis show up in them? My
guess is that it was inadequate attention to detail;
as the saying goes..."

Presuming only for sake of argument that there is any Iridium,
of shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds,
buckyballs, Heluim3, and other impact indicators to be found in the
in the Alaskan “muck” in the first place, the reason they have not
been found so far is that, unlike the deposits of a mega-tsunamis /
tsunamis, they are completely invisible to the naked eye and require
either the analyses of the samples using microscopic, petrographic,
or geochemical techniques to detect them. It is simply impossible
for anyone to be able visually detect with the naked eye whether or
not shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds,
buckyballs, Heluim3, or any other indicator of an impact are present
in a sediment. I would challenge Mr. Grondine to explain how anyone
can determine the presence of shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic
microspherules, nano-diamonds, buckyballs, Heluim3, in a sample of
loess or any other sediment simply by looking at it with his or her
own unaided eyes. I would predict that neither Mr. Grondine can
explain how to do this because it is an impossible task for anyone
to do.

In complete contrast, a mega-tsunamis capable of washing hundreds
of miles inland and up and over thousand-foot high mountains to
reach the Fairbanks area would certainly have created a blatantly
obvious blanket of sediment over thousands of square miles that is
quite visible to the unaided eye. As documented in numerous papers
listed above, such a mega-tsunamis deposit will be quite different
from the layers created by periglacial processes, which Hibben
(1943) misinterpreted to be catastrophic origin. If a mega-tsunamis
/ tsunamis generated by subduction zone earthquakes leaves very
distinct and recognizable deposits, then a mega-tsunamis generated
by an event even more cataclysmic event would have left very
similar and quite distinctive deposits. Completely unlike shocked
quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds, buckyballs,
and Heluim3, such deposits will be quite visible and easily
recognized as being anomalous to the unaided eye of any
conventional geologist within the loessial, fine-grained
Alaskan “muck” deposits.

Finally, as previously discuss, the mega-tsunamis generated by
seismic events and landslides are quite obviously and simply
not powerful enough to have washed 350 to 420 miles inland and
up and over entire mountain ranges to reach the area of Fairbanks,

List of papers discussing the age, origin, and character of the
"muck" deposits of Hibben (1943) and completely demolish
the interpretations made by Mr. Grondine and other catastrophists

Berger, Glenn W., 2003, Luminescence chronology of Late
Pleistocene loess-paleosol and tephra sequences near Fairbanks,
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 70-83.

Bettis, E. A., Muhs, D. R., Robert, H. M., and Wintle, A. G., 2003,
Last Glacial loess in the conterminous USA. Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19, pp. 1907-1946

Frenchen, M., and Yamskikh, 1995, Upper Pleistocene loess
stratigraphy in the southern Yenisei Siberia area. Journal
of the Geological Society of London. vol. 156, pp. 515-525.

Gutherie, R. D., 1990, Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppes:
The Story of Blue Babe. University of Chicago Press, Chicago,

Hibben, Frank C., 1942, Evidences of early man in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, pp. 254-259.

Hibben, Frank C., 1946. Lost Americans. Crowell. New York,
New York.

Lagroix, F., and Banerjee, S. K., 2004, The regional and temporal
significance of primary aeolian magnetic fabrics preserved in
Alaskan loess. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 225,
pp. 379- 395

Lagroix, F., and Banerjee, S. K., 2006, Discussion of "Geochemical
evidence for the origin of late Quaternary loess in central Alaska"
Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences. vol. 43, no. 12, pp. 1887-1890.

Muhs, D. R. and Budahn, J. R., 2007, Geochemical evidence for
the origin of late Quaternary loess in central Alaska. vol. 43,
no. 3, pp. 323-337.

Muhs, D. R., Ager T. A., and Begét, J. E., 2001, Vegetation
and paleoclimate of the last interglacial period, central Alaska
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 41-61.

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., Bettis, E. A., III, McGeehin, J., Been,
J. M., Begét, J. E., Pavich, M. J., Stafford, T. W., Jr., and
Stevens, D. S. P., 2003, Stratigraphy and paleoclimatic
significance of late Quaternary loess-paleosol sequences of the
last interglacial-glacial cycle in central Alaska: Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol. 22, pp. 1947-1986.

Muhs, D. R., McGeehin, J. P, Beann, J., and Fisher, E., 2004,
Holocene loess deposition and soil formation as competing
processes, Matanuska Valley, southern Alaska. Quaternary
Research. vol. 61, no. 3, pp. 265-276

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., and Begét, J., 2004, Stratigraphy and
palaeoclimatic significance of Late Quaternary loess-palaeosol
sequences of the Last Interglacial-Glacial cycle in central
Alaska. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19,
pp. 1947-1986.

McDowell, P. F., and Edwards, M. E., 2001, Evidence of
Quaternary climatic variations in a sequence of loess and
related deposits at Birch Creek, Alaska: implications for the
Stage 5 climatic chronology. Quaternary Science Reviews,
vol. 20, no.1-3, pp. 63-76.

Pewe, T. L., 1955, Origin of the upland silt near Fairbanks,
Alaska. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 66,
no. 6, pp. 699-724.

Pewe, T. L., 1975a, Quaternary Geology of Alaska. U.S.
Geological Survey Professional Paper 835, 145 pp.

Pewe, T. L., 1975b, Quaternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in
Central Alaska. U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper
no. 862, 32 pp.

Pewe, T. L., 1989, Quaternary stratigraphy of the Fairbanks
area, Alaska. in Late Cenozoic History of the Interior Basins
of Alaska and the Yukon. U.S. Geological Survey Circular
no. 1026, pp. 72-77.

Pewe, T. L., Berger, G. W., Westgate, J. A., Brown, P. A., and
Leavitt, S. W., 1997, Eva Interglacial Forest Bed, Unglaciated
East-Central Alaska. Geological Society of America Special
Paper no. 319, 54 pp.

Rainey, F., 1940, Archaeological Investigations in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 5, pp. 299-308.

Rutter, N. W., Rokosh, D., Evans, M. E., Little, E. C., Chlachula,
J., and Velichko, A., 2003, Correlation and interpretation of
paleosols and loess across European Russia and Asia over
the last interglacial-glacial cycle. Quaternary Research.
vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 101-109.

Westgate, J. A., Stemper, B. A., and Pewe, T. L., 1990, A 3
m.y. record of Pliocene-Pleistocene loess in interior Alaska.
Geology. vol. 18, no. 9, p. 858-861.

Westgate, John A., Preece, Shari J., and Pewe, Troy L., 2003,
The Dawson Cut Forest Bed in the Fairbanks area, Alaska, is
about two million years old. Quaternary Research. vol. 60,
no. 1, Pages 2-8.


Paul H.